Those curse numbers sound good (3,4,6, and I also like that they all reach 96%.

Units can not discover invisible units like they can ruins. However there is a 3rd way to find them and that's via a quest (an easy quest for a specific unit type or the medium quest that kills X number of units).

I understand if you don't want to have an invisible scout. Just trying for another outside the box solution for the 'too many duplicate units' problem.

KGB

Banshee: I also love Banshees and like Anomander likely would stop using if they went to curse 2. So that means they need to remain at curse 3. The only way to not invalidate Harpies would be to remove their Flying AND lower movement to 20 AND drop view to 1. Still makes them useful for suicide missions removing blessing but they would no longer be able to fly and move 24 or scout. That might be enough to keep Harpies valid.

Gnomes: I love Gnomes. You can win games purely on them + Elf Calv with their 5/3 values as they can rapidly move over the map and raze cities that have only a few defenders in them (most cities). I think in the rework document I had a plan (or there was at least a discussion) to make them have Lightning +2 similar to Imps. But yes, you need to do something about the rest to bring them in line (maybe 2 hits, likely remove Forest movement etc).

Halfling Braves: I don't use them but like Anomander, I know players who did because of the 28 moves. This goes back to what I posted in the other thread about adjusting overall movement. No 1 turn unit needs to move 28 or if it does, it needs to cost a TON (over 200).

Rovers: If I don't use Gnomes I use these guys especially if I know my opponent uses lots of flying units. Rovers are basically what Scouts should have been in DLR. Probably fine as they are.

Straw Golems: Rarely used but the idea is interesting. Probably need to move 18 to go with that 3/1 stat and not cost more than 80.

Sylphs: Never seen them used. Did you know you can put 'invisibility' on a unit and it will be invisible? One of the scenario maps (Divine Right) did this with the Sylph unit and changed the stats to 2/1 so it wasn't very strong. Such a unit might be interesting to have as a flying invisible scout (adjust view to 4, cost to 75).

Vampire Bats: I've seen them used as a suicide unit. But they should definitely not have much view or fly faster than regular bats. So 3 view, 22 moves (I'd make regular bats move 22 as well) and only cost 50.

KGB

The reason so many Stormheim units got huge view was to make them useful options when selecting units.

Players in online MP games needed ways to remove as much of the fog of war on the map as possible because with turns only lasting 3-4 minutes you don't have a lot of time to move every scout and look for enemy units. So the idea was with huge view radius you could station 1 unit 6 squares from another unit and so on so you could see the enemy units coming without needing to move every scout.

You can make non-dragon units more valuable by reducing all the dragon view ranges to 3 which is what the Undead Dragon has. This would make units with view of 4-6 much more useful and valuable.

I took a first glance at your Stormheim units and with the changes in price to the Emerald/Brass they are essentially useless. With the cost THAT close to the Red/Green there is no reason to take them unless you are desperate. That final +1 (to +5) is worth WAY more than just 200 gold cost. They weren't badly costed at 1200 and would be fine at 1250-1300 if you reduced strength to 8/3 along with the movement reduction you already made.

I disagree with Anomander about making slower units useful. In games that aren't 1 army starts like his, lots of other units can be used and will be used. Units with 16 moves are fine *if* they have a dedicated purpose on defense (assassination, archery, PPDC etc). That's why faster units should have lesser values in those skills (+1 archery vs +3/+4 archery for slower units) to make the slower units viable.

KGB

P.S. There are still plenty of units both flying and non-flying that are moving 20+. You may want to lower a lot of those to 20 unless they are very specialized in movement in order to help balance things. For example units like Pegasi/Pegacentaur moving 24 could easily go down to 20 and still have value. It would also be a good idea to go over all the cavalry type units (basically anything with riders on them) and make them more consistent move wise, maybe the heaviest armored like Knights at 18, Hv Cavalry types at 20 and lights at 22 and then Elven get an extra +2 because they are elves type thing.

Since you mentioned the Undead Beast, lets focus on Chaos for the moment (Note, you should update your google doc's with your Undead beast numbers and anything else you've changed since I reference it often).

Here are the +3 or better Chaos units:
Red - 9/3 +5, 5 turns, 1500
Undead Beast - 8/4 +4, 4 turns, 1300
Slayer Knight - 7/3 +4, 4 turns, 1100
Fire Demon - 8/3 +3, 4 turns 1100
Fire Elemental - 7/2, +3, 4 turns 1100
(Emerald) - 9/3 +4, 5 turns 1200

The Red is the only option if you want +5. More importantly, now that you reduced cost to 1500, it makes Undead Beast even with changed stats look bad because it's only 200 more for flight and +1 more Chaos. So the Red might better off back at 1600 (or even 1650-1700) since it's the only way to get to +5 Chaos and a higher cost makes the Undead Beast at 1300 with 4 hits and 22 move look much better.

Slayer Knight should probably go to 1000 so it's the cheapest +4 Chaos unit and quite a bit cheaper than the Undead Beast.

Fire Demons won't ever get used in someone's set, especially not in Ally 2/3. But that's OK because they come from the Summoner spells and that's their role. But realistically given the reduction of the Slayer Knight these units need to be in the 900 range since they top out at +3.

The Fire Elemental now looks usable with +3 Chaos combined with flight. You can easily have this as your only Chaos unit if you have a Barbarian who can get to +5 or one of the heroes who have a Chaos spell. In fact if you lowered the cost to 1000 this unit would look even better for someone who wanted to avoid spending for a Red (or Emerald)

The Emerald dragon should go to 8/3 (like the Brass) and if the Red goes to 1700 this dragon should go to 1300. Otherwise just reduce the Strength to 8/3 and leave as is if the Red stays at 1600 (or 1500).

KGB

Anomander Rake wrote:


Correct. At least in any games that allowed Stormheim units.

+1 Fortify just isn't that great. Not only do Iceguards have it, but the Royal Guard (2 turn Stormheim unit) has it too. You just don't see either unit get used. Probably because +4 Fortify wasn't that big of an advantage (since so many use SE which gave +4 Siege). Your change to the SE to +3 might make +1 Fortify units more valuable depending on your final costs for the +4 Siege units (and your Thief numbers). But honestly, I think +2 Fortify is the number needed to make it really useful on a high end unit like a Dragon.

KGB

The Frost Dragon costs 2000 because he allows your stack to reach +5 Fortify in a L3 city and the only counter to that is a Thief with +5 siege. If the Silver gets +2 Fortify it means you'll have to do something with the Frost Dragon (back to the +1/+2 Group Warding idea again). That cost is reasonable given it stacks with city walls / spells / items.

It also means you definitely make the Thief a 'must have' because with no decent +4 Siege unit (unless your Worms get 4 hits with their 20 move) for a reasonable cost (1000 or less) the Silver at +2 will be incredibly strong in a city with +5 vs +3 Siege or even with heroes that have a Fortify spell it will be possible to be +4 Fortify outside a city.

If you want to give the Wizard a siege spell that's OK, but make sure it doesn't invalidate the Shaman's Jihad spell which is one of the main reasons to take the Shaman because he can get you to +5 siege with a siege unit. So it would have to cost something like 2 AP with cost 4 mana without the group move so it's inferior. I agree with Anomander that the Wizard Leadership cost can go back to 3 AP.

KGB

Anomander Rake wrote:


There really aren't any more competitive Ladder games played any more. But when there were, no one ever used Blues because of the bug. In fun games, of course you can use Blues especially since you know your friend and can guess he won't use Blacks



I've played a lot of these types of games with friends. They are definitely different and fun to play especially with hidden maps. We usually use the 1-4 army start to get more Dragons and reduce bad luck if one dies early.

We also use game options like 'Battle of the Titans' to start everyone with a L10 hero.

There are a lot of fun ways to play DLR. That's one of the challenges of balancing heroes and units. Things that work well in one kind of game don't work at all in others. So the goal should be to make sure each unit can be used in at least some kind of game option (hidden, non-hidden, PBEM, 1 army start, 3000 point start, solo vs 7 AI's etc). That's why I'm suggesting some radical things for this 25th anniversary project in hopes to make units usable in some games.

KGB

Hannibal Rex wrote:


It only applies to armies that aren't in the summoners or necromancers army sets. So if you have Fire Demons in your army set then summoning Fire Demons doesn't use up 1 of the 15 neutral slots.

The problem is as a hero designer you have no idea whether an army will be in someones army set. So you have to design for worst case. It can get really bad in solo games vs 7 AI's because now there are 32 potential heroes (4 per player) so the odds you reach all 15 slots gets really high if you have a lot of heroes who can summon units.

I would suggest having no more than 15 units across all your heroes. The Summoner and Necromancer use up a lot of slots (like 11 total) so you only get 4 more for the rest of your heroes. Or you have to cut down what the Summoner can summon (there is no way to change Necromancy)

KGB

Anomander Rake wrote:


A 1 army start explains why you love Gold dragons and why you consider having 4 dragons in your set.

Competitive online play (1 vs 1) always uses 3000 point starts to eliminate bad luck and always uses non-hidden maps so players can choose capitals close to lots of cities (again to eliminate bad luck). In those games you typically start with 10-25 units and conquer the map quickly (esp ruins and mana cities). That's where the teleport heroes are really valuable because a Rush tactic can work because the hoard of units on turn 1 means you conquer lots of neutral for mana and for places to teleport into.

You are right that hero battles decide things. Unless a city full of Assassin units does so first which is why trap cities that can kill heroes are so important.

KGB

Returning to Chaos vs Fear:

Fear is much more valuable than Chaos. That's because there are so many units in the game that come with +3 or +4 morale and there are none that come with Leadership. So a starting Green Dragon is much more useful than a starting Red dragon when facing neutrals.

It's also much more common to see Morale +4 than Leadership +4 in hero stacks. Again because it's easy to get a +3 Morale unit and find a morale +1 item or a morale +1 spell to reach +4 or reach +5 Morale with a +1 item and +1 spell.

But the hardest thing to do is counter a hero stack with +5 leadership. You either need a Chaos hero or one of the few units with Chaos +4 (plus item) / Chaos +5. I believe the reason the big Chaos units cost so much (Red more than Green) is because of how hard it is to reach +4/+5 Leadership and the idea was that it should be worth something if you worked hard to build up a hero to +5 leadership therefore it should be hard to counter it so the few units that can do it, cost a LOT.

In game where Stormheim units are not allowed, I often go without a Red Dragon or +4 Chaos unit and just live with getting Chaos from a Barb or a spell if I need it, but I would never ever go without a Green (or Brass if allowed) dragon because you will always encounter multiple enemy stacks with Morale +3 or larger.

KGB

Returning to Dragons:

Silver Dragon - This is another excellent candidate to turn into a Group Warding unit that could be used in a hero stack. You could change to Group Warding +1 and reduce the cost to 1100 and the Silver retains it's flavor as a protector type dragon from Dragonlance. Or Group Warding +2 and make it cost 1500.

Gold Dragon - I would not make it Morale +5. It's meant for early expansion and then to reach +5 with a morale item on heroes that don't have Morale spells.

Black vs Blue - Because of the bug NO serious player plays Blues. I never see them used at all. If someone is taking Battle Dragons in Ally 4 it's always Blacks because of the bug. There are 2 things you can do. (1) You can just accept the bug renders Blues useless vs Blacks and make them a bit cheaper (1600) because of the Bug. (2) You could go for a radical fix and change Blacks to be Group Acid +2 and lower the cost to 1700 range. This gets rid of the Black vs Blue direct combat issue and opens up possibilities of using Blacks with other Acid units like your Worms to get strong Acid attack stacks or paired with the Monks group acid spell etc.

The other dragons (Undead + Stormheim ones) are probably OK as they are. If you get around to balancing Stormheim ones too, I'd probably lower the Brass/Emerand Dragons strength to 8 so that they needed a Bless to get to 9 strength but that's a conversation for another day.

KGB

You have to be very careful giving heroes the ability to summon more units. I found there is a limit of 15 units in a 'neutral set' that you can't see (Steve told me when I was trying to figure out why units were not appearing). The summoned / necromancy units go into this 15. What happens if you exceed that is some units won't appear (the first 15 that are asked for appear the rest don't). Necromancy uses up something like 5 slots (Skeletons, Wights, Wraiths, Undead Beasts, Undead Dragons) and a Summoner hero can use another 5 with his spells etc. So it's easy to exceed 15 between all players because so many heroes summon units (golems, archons etc).

KGB

I'll bet that a lot of our disagreements come from the types of games being played.

Anomander is playing a fair bit of 4 player games which are quite different than 2 player games because you only get half the number of cities, ruins etc and you meet enemy players that much faster. He didn't mention whether they play hidden maps or non-hidden and that's a major difference (fast scout units with huge view matters a lot on hidden maps so you can find ruins and mana cities but hardly matters on non-hidden).

There is also a difference between PBEM play (take your time) and live head-2-head play (always rushed for time) and another big difference is army start (1 army, 1-4 armies, 3000 points). I play quite different army sets depending on army start.

I'm definitely assuming that EVERYONE plays the largest maps with max cities/ruins/sites. I can't recall the last time I didn't play that type of game.

KGB

Thanks for posting the link to the google doc's. It's super helpful to have going forward as you continue to adjust things so everyone can see where things are. The 25 anniversary tab was easy enough for me to figure out. I don't suppose there is any way to be able to sort by columns so I could line up all the 1 turn units (you'd have to be able to group multiple rows together to do that).


Just a few random comments from looking through the entire list:
Air Elem - At 7/2 even with Lightning +4 this unit isn't going to get used by anyone. It's too weak for hero stacks and too expensive to put on city defense or non-hero stacks. I think Grp Lightning +1 (if you don't use grp warding) and 7/3 would get this unit used esp since it could bolster cities full of Imps. Or if you want to retain the Lightning +4 7/2 stats it needs to be a 3 turn unit.

Archon - Your 1100 cost for a 4 turn +3 unit is too high. Compared to Unicorns with +3 for 750 at 3 turns or Silver Dragon at +3 for 1200 at 5 turns but 9/3 vs 8/2. The reason they were set to 800 is because no one ever used them at 1100. It probably doesn't matter that much anyway because they are going to be summoned via the Priest or in Ally 4 anyway so no one is going to pay 1100 in regulars but I just wanted to point that out.

Ballistae - Even with the cost reduction it's not going to get used. The idea of the unit is interesting with the huge city bonus but the 1 hit stat makes it too useless to bother with. Needs to be a 4/2 unit with city +4 and then it might get used.

Cave Wyrms - These guys used to get played because of the 20 move, +2 Siege and Archery immunity (esp with Shaman siege spell). Now I am not sure they will because a 7/3 4 turn unit that costs 1100 just isn't good enough given it will be destroyed by any Trample unit or any flying stack of Dragon type units etc. The cost needs to go down to under 1000 if you want this unit to ever be considered as a replacement for a Black Dragon (and when Stormheim Balrog is compared this unit is definitely useless).

Centaurs - Why the field bonus? These guys live in Woods. Would make more sense to give them something like Woods +3 or +4 so they were true killers in woods.

Dryads - These are useless units at 2 turns for a 2/2 unit with +1 morale. Even if they cost 1 and not 100 I'd never take them. This is another unit that you could consider putting Group Warding on because their magic could be protecting everyone. Then maybe someone might consider them if this was the fastest unit to get Group Warding (ie no other 1 or 2 turn units had it).

Dust Worms - Compared to Treants (7/4 +4 siege 1300 4 turn) their 6/3 +4 siege 1400 4 turn stats looks abysmal. If Cave Worms remain with Acid, these guys need to go to 6/4 (archery immunity) to compete with Treants with their extra 100 cost being for 18 vs 15 moves.

Dwarf Crossbow - I like the lowered cost but it's still not enough when you compare to Archers (+2 missile for 90) or halflings (+3 for 200). They need to be 200 or less to be considered and go back to hills bonus (note, all dwarf units should get dungeon like Runners have)

Dwarf Infantry - Siege on a 1 turn unit is over powered. It renders units like the 2 turn Orog pointless plus it renders all L1 cities void defense wise. If you want a Dwarf unit with siege (thematically makes sense) then this unit needs to become a 2 turn unit like the Orog.

Elephant - Why would anyone take a 7/3 +2 trample for 1400 when you can take an Iron Golem that is 6/3 +3 trample for 1000? Elephants were probably one of the best balanced units in 1.02 and didn't really need anything done to them.

Elven Archers - Increasing the move to 20 is going to over power these units. The only thing that kept them as garrison units was the 16 moves. At 20 moves they can start really moving around the map.

Giant Bats/Rats - I always hated Rats getting that huge banding bonus. To me Rats should be disease carriers (+1 disease) and Giant Bats should be Vampire Bats (the Stormheim unit) with Assassin +1 but less view (2). Then Skeletons (with their useless Warding) could get the +6 Banding bonus (hoard of skeletons which makes them more valuable when created by Necromancy). But that's just my thoughts.

Giant Scorpions - Increasing their costs is less likely to get them used even with +7 vs +6 poison. I think +7 and leave costs where they were.

Giant Spiders - I'd make them +2 in City the way they were feared city units in War2 in addition to what you've already done.

Gnoll Infantry - They probably cost too much at 100. I think cost of 75 with the original 2/2 stats vs the 3/2 for 100 makes them more likely to get used because its the Assassin +1 that makes them valuable.

Green Slime - Even at 100 cost for a 2 turn unit no one uses them. The reason is the Acid +2 isn't good enough. But you have Acid +3 units already so the only way this unit gets used is if you make some unit have Group Acid +1 so that you can mount a defense in a city. Or these guys have to become a 1 turn unit (with lesser strength obviously) like the Imps so you can get masses of them easier.

Gryphons - 6/3 3 turn +2 morale for 750. Compared to Eagle that are 6/3 3 turn +2 morale for 750. Why would any one take Eagles esp when both move 24+ and Gryphon also has city bonus to strength. One of those 2 units needs to change in some way.

Hellhounds - A 1 turn 2/2 unit with +1 fear for only 100 is a steal price wise with that 22 moves. Might be too cheap.

Ice Demons - I understand the idea of Fire + Ice Demons giving Fear and Chaos. But you just made the Summoner hero and specifically the Demonic Hoard spell that much more powerful because now you get strong fear and chaos in one spell along with solid combat stats (7/3 and 8/3). This might over power the Summoners spells.

Pikemen - I'd like to see Field +2 so they have a chance to shine in the open.

Siege Engines - This might be the most controversial move with the Siege going to +3. I know it's meant to allow the new +4 units like Treant to get used. But those units also cost a LOT (1000+). What this does is make the Thief that much better with his Siege for 1 AP since he can get to +4 and +5 so easily. Also makes the Shaman spell better too. You have to hope you didn't over power those heroes (make them must have) by this change or else those units with +4 Siege need to get down to 900-950 range instead of 1200+

Troll - I like the Archery immunity but think you also need to increase the move to 18 or 20. The reason is you have a pair of 2 turn units (Dk Pegasi, Ghosts that also have +2 Fear) that give Fear +2 and fly and move 20+ so this unit is going to be VERY hard to justify taking at 3 turns for +2 unless it moves a long way in addition to the Archery immunity and even that might not be enough.

Undead Beasts - You reduced Slayers from 1300 to 1100 and Reds from 1600 to 1500 so this guy at 1400 is costed wrong now. Given how much better the Red is, this unit needs to get down to 1200ish.

Unicorn - No one is going to take this unit over the Archon. It was an ideal 3 turn unit and should have remained there and probably didn't need any adjustments at all.

Wraiths - As mentioned, I think you can give Necromancy to units. Giving this unit +3 Necromancy so it can raise it's own kind and others would be neat and unique. More importantly the +3 Fear could then go to the Troll who needs to be better than the Dk Pegasi/Ghost

KGB

It's true that not all 90 units are going to be able to be used competitively. Also I assume you will be wanting to make some theme based sets for the neutral sides (I'm assuming you will change the 8 neutral sides) for when players play against the AI. You'll have to do this if you are changing the names in your mod from 'Lt Infantry' to 'Lt Infantry25' to indicate these are your 25 anniversary units/heroes etc.

That said, if you make a bunch of them duplicate units (ie multiple 1 turn units with poison) then most will never get used other than in your theme sets and you've wasted a lot of your time balancing for things not used.


3 turn units are used in Merc3 and Ally 1. They are also found in the regular army set in slot 6 where the most common choice is the Siege Engine (esp with no Stormheim Battering Ram). Most players will have 2 of the 3 turn units in their army set so when thinking about 3 turn units you need to realize they probably only get to choose 1 since the other will be a Siege Engine/Ram.

For me, 3 turn units need to do something unique that I can't get elsewhere or costs a LOT to get elsewhere on 4/5 turn units. The best 3 turn units are Siege Engines/Battering Rams (high siege), Gnoll Calv/Assassin (high assassin), Cyclops (archery immunity+trample), Moonguard (high missiles+good strength), Roc Rider (flying Siege). Others like the Unicorn can be used (good morale + very high movement) on occasion on certain maps where they are plentiful or in certain army sets designed around them. The rest of the 3 turn units in the game either need to be made a lot better or would be better off being 2 turn units.

Until you publish a list of all your changes (cost, hits, move, strength, skills etc) it's hard to figure out how all the changes to the 1/2 turn units will work out and how good they will be. For example what did you do with Imps? They are ideal 1 turn units other than the CRAZY high cost of 300 because a bunch in a city with Lightning +2 can wreak havoc on a hero stack as good as a city full of Gnolls (+1 Assassin). So I'll wait to see your numbers for the 1/2 turn units to comment further.

The Ghost/Wights change seems interesting. I can't remember if you can put Necromancy on units (or whether it can only be on a hero). You might try and see if it works. If so, it might make a fun skill to put on a 3 turn Undead unit (Wraiths maybe) so that at +3 Necromancy Wraiths could make Wraiths and lesser units.

With regards to Warding, I agree with you about what it means on Wolfriders/Wargs/Scouts vs what it means on a unit like the Rock Elemental.

Rock Elementals saw use in 1.01 and earlier when speed was 2x movement. Mostly for attacking cities full of units with the Assassin skill. At 6/4 they just aren't good enough vs Dragons at 9/3 in hero battles and the 15 move is a killer and they are eaten alive by Golems. They'd need to be at least 7 str and move 18 to be viable in hero stacks and no one thinks of Rock Elementals as fast moving. I don't remember the last time I saw someone use Rock Elementals in an army set unless it was a theme game (ie no dragons).

I rarely see the Royal Dragon used and when I do it's always been in Ally 4. The individual warding just isn't good enough to justify needing more than 1 of them to handle the few cities that have assassin units.

On the other hand, if Imps cost comes down a lot to make them viable 1 turn units (even if their stats needs to go to 1/2 from 1/3) and there is a viable 1 or 2 turn unit with Acid (Slimes aren't good enough) then Warding and Group Warding may become a lot more valuable to have on a Royal Dragon or other unit that could go in a hero stack (Air Elemental with group warding that I mentioned)

Hard to say how good warding/group warding is because you either really need it or you don't need it at all. Something like +2 Group Warding on a viable hero unit like a 7/3 Air Elemental would make that unit get used for sure. +1 Group Warding on a less unit (a 2 turn unit like Pegasi) also has a place for non-hero stacks too.

You have to be careful with Warding on a hero. I originally gave the Monk warding and he became a 1 man killer because of the cheap upgrades and the spells that boosted his hits/strength and the presence of strength items etc. Players were easily able to get a 15/4 Monk (cheap XP table) that was almost unkillable with the Warding so I removed it. Warding on a Vampire might help it get used but I don't think the Monk or Barbarian need it because they get plenty strong now (both can easily reach 15/4 status at L6 if they find a strength item or two) and become hard to kill.

KGB

A lot to process here in your last 3 posts and I hope I answered all your questions.

Regarding the PPDC units. I agree that there are only realistically 2 ways to use them. As cheap garrison/suicide units OR as units potentially strong enough to go into a hero stack (Curse being preferred since it amplifies Evil Eye).

For that reason I think 3 turn units with PPDC don't really make sense because those are 'tween' units that cost too much/take too long to be garrisons and aren't good enough for hero stacks. This primarily affects the Giant Scorpion and Medusa(3 turn units). You either need to make it 2 turns or 4+ and good enough for a hero stack and I think it only makes sense as a 2 turn unit.

Looking at what you have (or I presume you have) I see (numbers in brackets are turns/power level):
Poison - Orc Mob (1/1), Bees (1/3), Spiders (2/5), Mummies (2/4), Scorpions (3/7)
Disease - Zombies (1/1) Ghouls (1/2), Plague Carriers (2/7)
Paralysis - Cockatrice (2/3), Medusa (3/6)
Curse - Ghosts (2/4), Harpies (2/4), Spectres (4/6), Undead (5/5)

You'll note there is a lack of 1 turn paralysis and curse units (hence why Banshee was created). You also have duplicate 1 turn disease units. Why not switch Ghouls to +2 Paralysis (Dungeons and Dragons does this) and leave them as 3/2 combat so they are decent garrison units then move the Zombie to +2 disease. You also have duplicate 1 turn poison units with Bees and Orc Mobs that you should fix. Personally I think Orb Mobs should get banding bonus (the word mob is right in their name) of +2 to get them to 4/2. Then there is duplicated effort in Harpies/Ghosts (both 2 turns). A Banshee is really another name for a Ghost so you could switch the Ghost to 1 turn and give the stats or similar stats to the Banshee (esp if not bring Stormheim units). Then you just have to figure out Scorpions/Medusa and what you want to do there with them being awkward 3 turn units.

Regarding your test with Curse. Did it remove blessing too or just the medals. I swore Cursed units could not be cursed but maybe that meant only removing a Blessing. I am not sure if Poison units are immune to Poison, you'd need to test because a lot of things don't quite work the way they were meant to after all the changes in 1.02 code.

Regarding Group Warding on Scouts. I still think its is too much and doesn't make that much sense (how do scouts protect you from acid and lightning etc) especially if you will make them cost more than Lt Inf! I'm guessing you removed Group Warding from the Hv Calv. If so, why not consider moving Group Warding to another unit like say the Pegasi. Right now it has a useless Morale +1 (plenty of units give that Morale or better). Since the Pegasi is meant to be a magical creature maybe giving Group Warding +1 makes more sense there. Alternatively (or maybe also), the Air Elemental is another possible choice (another magical creature) and at 4 turns it could get Group Warding +2 making it useful in hero stacks if it went to 3 hits. That way group warding is available in other places besides spells.

Regarding Dragons. Giving them +1 field is fine and makes sense for the reasons you mentioned. Especially since they cost SO much in gold to produce and to fit in your army set.

KGB

I love the idea of more 1 turn PPDC units. But I think you need at least +2 to make it have any value. 8 units at +1 are only 32% likely which isn't high enough to matter. It's OK to have one 1 turn unit at +2 disease and another 1 turn unit at +3 disease if their strength/hits/move compensates so that 1 is meant for city defense and another for scouting/raiding etc.

A 1 turn unit with Group Warding is going to be reasonably powerful because the skill confers to the whole stack. Putting it on scouts means you'll need to make them cost a lot to justify giving them the skill which sort of defeats the idea of the scout being a cheap exploration unit.

If your dead set against using Stormheim units then +1 archery on scouts would essentially make them into Rovers. The whole reason Rovers were created was because players wanted a 1 turn unit with good move, high view, could lead units cross terrain and have Archery +1 so they could be used against fliers.

KGB

The goal for heroes obviously is to get to +5 in as many categories as possible. Usually 1 hero will go for +5 leadership and another for +5 morale so that when teamed together you get +5 in 2 categories. Since some heroes did not have Leadership at all or it cost 3 AP then taking Morale for 2 AP makes sense. Also some heroes like the Monk have a TON of AP points to spend so it's easy to justify spending 6 of them for +3 Morale.

So when you are putting Leadership on all heroes as part of your update and making it cost 3 AP, no one is ever going to bother taking it. It's essentially a wasted skill since you need to take it a bunch of times to get it high enough to matter. That doesn't mean you should remove it, but just understand no one is going to take it.

Personally I only upgrade cities to get medium quests OR if it's a city on the front line that might get attacked. All the rest stay where they are since everyone has at least a Battering Ram (+3 Siege) in their set. I never use Engineering and as far as I know, no one else does either since the best heroes don't have that skill and you can't build a good set around Engineering. So unless you put Engineering on one of the top 6 heroes its not going to get used.

I've never seen anyone use Ice Guards or the Frost Dragon. Only a few times have I even seen the Royal Guards. I think the reason is that you can't win the game by defending so their Fortify skill doesn't matter that much. If you want only a single unit to have Fortify, then it has to be a 2 turn unit to have any hope of ever being used (Iceguards at 2 turns, 6/2 for 500 gold might get used).

PPDC is most useful on defense where you can load a city with 32 units so you can guarantee you poison/disease the enemy. Pretty much the only PPDC units that go in a hero stack are Lamia because they have the 4 hits. On occasion I've seen a few others (Wyvern, Undead Dragon, Spectre etc) get used but those require special circumstances (the map with all the Undead Dragons, games with no Telport so the Priest hero gets used with Mighty Feast etc).

Ranking the 4 skills goes like this
1) Curse - The best one because it removes any blessing which then allows Disease/Poison to work. Also removes Medals
2) Poison - Slightly better than Disease especially in hero battles
3) Disease - Handy if you have a heavy archery set on defense and need to ensure your archers can get a kill.
4) Paralysis - Totally useless since no one cares if you paralyze 1 turn defenders and all Hero stacks end up Blessed. It's only use is VERY early in the game before players explore and get access to bless sites. The neutral map that has Medusa in it with Paralysis is very annoying to play on because of this. It's best suited to going in neutral army sets.

Paralysis was only removed from Evil Eye to balance out the extra curse. You can put it back in if you want but if you lose your hero it's often game over anyway so it doesn't matter if paralysis worked. Incidentally, Evil Eye is a VERY powerful spell at L6 when everything doubles. It's essentially as good as +1 Medals (Medal of Valor or Berzerk at L1-5) esp if the enemy has been stripped of blessing (banshee suicide attack or you have a strong Curse unit in your hero stack).

The Basilisk replaced the Cockatrice. But if you plan on not using StormHeim, then you need to get the Cockatrice down to 30 or fewer moves. The bug involved changing from land form into ship form and back again and doing it repeatedly. The game gives back movement (all units not just the cock but most only get 1-2 moves, not 30 or 40) and since the cock was moving faster than the boats it was getting back a ton of extra moves. No one is really going to take a 3 turn Cock with 30 moves so you really need to turn it into the Basilisk and no one even took that either since Paralysis is mostly useless.

KGB

Everyone puts Elf Calv in their regular units (The only exception is on the 1 map that has Unicorns in the neutrals and on that map you can switch to Unicorns because there are so many free ones in the neutrals) because they are so cheap and move so fast they help conquer the map with 1 turn units. So you are right about that.

Archons/Silver/Gold Dragons tend to go in Ally 4 slot since you only need a couple of them with hero stacks and you can get via hero offer, Grade A ruins or summon via Priest. Of course many players don't bother at all with a +3 morale unit and just get +3 morale from hero skills (Monk, Barbarian, Priest etc) to go with spell/items to reach +5.

Personally I think Morale on Gryffons is a mistake. They should return to being the city bonus units they were in War2 and instead get +2 vs city so that at 8/3 they'd be viable against cities and be worthy of using. If you do that it makes it easier to figure out what you want to do with all the Morale units in the game because there are a lot that you'll need to plan out for in the 2 and 3 turns units category.

Negative bonus's are entirely different because they are capped at -1. Chaos is especially interesting because +1 Chaos gives a -1 in any battle other than a hero battle and even in battles with many heros that don't build leadership it cancels out their default +1 bonus. So those +2 Chaos units have value against many hero stacks too. You just need to cost them better based on move/hits/strength and any terrain bonus.

When building army sets the slots that matter are 7/8 in regulars, 2/3 in allies (4 comes so rarely it only matters if you want to put something there like the Archon so you can summon and place in fight order) and 3 in mercs. That's where the hero stack meat units or high bonus units go.

One thing to understand is that unit cost affects how easy it is to put in your army set. Elf Calv costing very little makes it easy to get into your army set. When the price rises its much harder to get into the army set. This is why 1 turn units like Ghouls which would be perfect for city defense with their disease are never seen because of the 300 cost makes it expensive to put into the slots. If the cost drops to a more reasonable 100 (or whatever my spreadsheet worked it out to be) then they'd be easier to use and appear more frequently. This is also why peasants are so popular because they don't cost much to put in an army set (or to build). It's worth changing some costs and seeing the effect on army set building because that will help you when you want to make players make difficult choices.

KGB

I agree with Anomander Rake, it doesn't matter what slayer skills the 1 turn units have. That's because they will really only get a hit against another 1 turn unit and not against the 4 and 5 turn units unless you have a city full of 32 such units and get lucky. So don't worry about putting Deathslayer on Elf Infantry or Cavalry etc.

A 3 turn unit with +2 morale isn't going to get chosen very often unless (A) its very cheap ( Has good strength/hits (C) good move. Otherwise, everyone is going to go with the Unicorn which has +3 morale and exceptional movement.

+3 is a very important number because there are a lot of morale spells that get a +3 unit to +5 at L6 or with a +1 morale item get you there at L2-5 spell wise.

I think you need +2 bonus on 2 turn units, +3 on 3 turn units and +4 on 4 & 5 turn units. Units which don't have those numbers will be DOA unless they have very high move/strength/hits to compensate.

KGB

P.S. Golems have plenty of uses. They move the same as siege units and work nicely in Ally 2/3 or Merc 3 slots. They don't help vs fliers but they eat up ground units and conquer cities without you needing to risk your hero. In the early game getting some can let you conquer a ton of neutrals very fast.