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TOPIC: Uber Retinue and alternatives
Uber Retinue and alternatives 12 years, 9 months ago #427
The Emperor + Retinue option comes with AI retinues that represent the deadliest offensive combo, specialised at killing other retinues (and units in general). The AI Uber Retinue looks approximately as follows:
BATTLEMASTER Dragonlord Hero w Leadership & Heal Helmet: Helm of Sartek (Curse +5) Weapon: Sword of Etheria (Bless +5) OR Bow of Brianna (Archery +5) Armour: Mithril Mail (Armour +5) Accessory: Albion's Shield (Warding +3) DEATHDEALER Dark Elven Hero w Fear & Negate Helmet: Scorpion Helm (Poison +4) Weapon: Flail of Madness (Multi-Attack +3) Armour: Mithril Mail (Armour +5) Accessory: Boots of Dancing (Taunt +4) CHAMPION SLAYER Dark Elven Hero w Fear & Negate Helmet: Meduza Helm (Death Gaze +3) Weapon: Axe of Slaying (Assassin +3) Armour: Mithril Mail (Armour +5) Accessory: Albion's Shield (Warding +3) With the level of all 3 Retinue units scaling up so it's always the level of your highest Retinue unit + 3 (which means they come into play one or two rounds after your last retinue unit). The number of items they carry increase with the items your Retinue carries. Like I mentioned above this Retinue is specialised at killing, and as a human player you'd want some other advantages than just that, which primarily means you should aim for getting other items. Plus different items will be good for different warlord types. And of course, if you don't build your Retinue with the Editor you'll just have to do with what you can get. Itemwise one of the prime things to do is to let the unit corresponding to the Battlemaster carry WizIce's Robe (Magic Immunity +5) and Orb of Etheria (Scouting +5) instead of Mithril Mail and Albion's Shield. This will make your group completely immune to magic attacks, and you'll be able to see into all cities and ruins plus you get a one square Fog of War viewing bonus. Whether the Battlemaster carries the Sword of Etheria or the Bow of Brianna should be governed by what race you're playing. With good/neutral races the sword is probably a little better, but with Evil Races the bow is better (since evil units can't be blessed). The Flail of Madness is, overall, by far the most dangerous weapon in the game, but it's weakness is that it doesn't do any extra damage to the unit you're facing. It's still the best weapon but as an alternative you could go for Melkor's Staff (Fire +5) or Titan's Maul (Crushing Blow +5). Then there are alternative units. As for Battlemaster you can also use a Knight Hero or an Elven Hero with Heal as long as you have Magic Immunity. Or, in fact, any other combination of hero+items that will give you Heal+Curse+Bless/Archery. But in the end you want a Dragonlord hero since he has more Life. Then there are interesting options for the offensive units. One I like is to swap the Dark Elven Heroes for Undead Heroes with Vampirism (for Death Dealer) and Assassin (for Champion Slayer), both with the Wand of Negation (Negate +3) instead of Flail of Madness and Axe of Slaying, respectively. The Vampirism Hero will be a little weaker than the Deathdealer in a Retinue vs Uber Retinue battle, but on the other hand he's a one man army... And the Assassin Hero is in fact just slightly more deadly than the ordinary Champion Slayer (since Negate doesn't negate Assassin). And of course there are other, even more different, possibilities... More about that at some other occasion. |
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"Negate does not negate Negate."
--- KGB "Moreover, I advise that Daemons and Dark Elves must switch places on the Race Wheel." --- Marcus Porcius Cato
Last Edit: 12 years, 9 months ago by Seppuccu.
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Re: Uber Retinue and alternatives 12 years, 9 months ago #430
I've experimented some with an alternative retinue which I've found matches the Uber Retinue in terms of deadliness. It looks as follows:
DRAGONLORD HERO w Leadership & Heal Helm of Sartek (Curse +5) Sword of Etheria (Bless +5) WizIce's Robe (Magic Immunity +5) Orb of Etheria (Scouting +5) ORKISH HERO w Fear & Curse Crown of Etheria (Heal +5) Sword of Etheria (Bless +5) Mithril Mail (Armour +5) Boots of Dancing (Taunt +4) EMPIRE HERO w Leadership & Assassin (No points in Leadership, you put them into Combat instead) Meduza Helm (Death Gaze +3) Wand of Negation (Negate +3) Armour of Etheria (Warding +5) Ring of Trolls (Regenerate +2) Swapping Armour of Etheria & Mithril Mail, and Boots of Dancing & Ring of Trolls, depending on the situation. It principially differs from the Uber Retinue in that instead of having 2 offensive and 1 defensive unit it has 1 offensive and 2 defensive unit. It's more of a slow killer, that builds on Healing and Regeneration while Blessing (84% chance with 2 Swords) and Cursing, rather than inflicting heavy damage. The major problem about it, as I see it, is that the offensive unit will level up like crazy since it'll do most of the fighting, so playing with Empire will make things easier by providing a steady supply of Empire heroes. KGB thinks this retinue is one-dimensional (it's just made for matching the Uber Retinue) and that the Ring of Trolls doesn't belong there. Naturally, I don't agree. But he suggested substituting the Crown of KGB for Helm of Sartek and he might have a point with that. Because of the Bless/Curse thing this Retinue will be more efficient against good/neutral units, but so far the results have been very convincing. |
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"Negate does not negate Negate."
--- KGB "Moreover, I advise that Daemons and Dark Elves must switch places on the Race Wheel." --- Marcus Porcius Cato
Last Edit: 12 years, 9 months ago by Seppuccu.
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Re: Uber Retinue and alternatives 12 years, 8 months ago #447
Seppucu,
I'd be curious to know a bit more about the tests you conducted. As in what level Warlord were you using? What level was your retinue? How many armies in the Uber Retinue battle (3v3 or did you bring lots of other useful units), any spells you might have used etc. For example your retinue would never work in a human v human game because yours has too many fatal flaws. For example: A Nature Warlord with the Tentacles spell + 8 bats/spiders (never mind Treants/Unicorns/Pegasi/Hydra etc) would wipe your retinue out because the best you can get is +3 Negate so the +2 remaining Multi-Attack would do 20+ damage easily before all 8 units died. A Summoner Warlord with Altar of Fire would devastate your retinue because Fire negates Armor (your Mithril Mail) so you'd always be taking full damage +1 fire damage even from cannon fodder units much less the Uber Retinue. Even summoning some High Level Hydras and leveling them up 1 time for +4 multi-attack would be a serious threat. A Necromancer Warlord with Blood Ritual would probably wipe the floor with your retinue due to always getting +2 Vampirism. Even Altar of Night can put any of your retinue out of commission at any time with cannon fodder units. Other handy battle spells like Venom (+5 poison), Visage (+5 Terror) could easily wreak serious havoc due to being +2 over your best Negate. Then there are the regular units themselves such as any high level Fear unit (L3+ Storm Dragon esp but possibly L5 Ogre/Harpy) when they have +5 Fear because they can instantly render your retinue useless. Plus the big Poison unit (Wyvern) and potentially the Fire Dragon's Fire again overcoming the Mithril Mail. I would also be curious to know how you'd fare against 2-3 L5+ Minotaurs (from the capitol city with +4 or +6 combat) and their +5 Bloodlust or an Ogres +5 Crushing blow. I suspect those could wipe you out if you got just a small amount of bad luck. Then there are the items that are +4 or better (Scorpion Helm/Melkors Staff primarily + a couple of Artifacts only available via the editor) all of which would be working because they surpass the Negate. Human players know how to exploit *all* of the above. Hence my comment about why your Retinue wouldn't fare well against human players and in high level Warlord games (L30+). And why I asked about other units in those fights, spells that might be active etc. The AI Uber Retinue with 2 +5 Negate heroes and Multi-Attack never suffers those problems that I listed above. That's why your retinue might be designed to take on the AI Uber Retinue but isn't truly a better option because of so many weaknesses that can be exploited either deliberately or by luck of timing. The AI Uber Retinue's only true weakness is from spells because I deliberately left Wiz Ice's robe off Battlemaster to allow Shatter/Ring of Fire/Hail/Meteor Swarm etc to be used. KGB |
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Re: Uber Retinue and alternatives 12 years, 8 months ago #448
Thank you for your reply, KGB. It was, as always, very insightful. The tests I conducted are described below.
I'm not 100% sure about every detail as it was some time ago, but both warlords were definitely at Level 0 & race Orcs. Warlord abilities for both were most likely Combat/Nature. My retinue was at Lvl 14 and the "Uber Retinue" at 17. The battles were taking place at Plains to give no additional bonuses. I conducted 40 battles in 3v3 and 40 battles in 8v8, with my retinues attacking in 20 and Uber Retinue attacking in 20. In the 8v8 battles the other 5 units were all (lvl 1-2) Wyverns. I put the Uber Retinue on Auto-battle. The reason I set things up like this is, naturally, because I wanted the "all other things being equal" scenario. I didn't want any other factors to blur the results. Aaaand....the results came out approximately as something like this (if I remember it correctly): * In the 3v3 battles my retinue won in approximately 2/3 of the battles, both when attacking and defending. * In the 8v8 battles the Uber Retinue group was clearly stronger, and there was one single reason for that: The Boots of Dancing. If the Deathdealer came into play before my offensive hero the battle was, in most cases, lost. After a while I learned approximately after how many Wyverns to put the offensive hero into play to have the best chance of winning and all of this might have distorted results because I actually won less fights attacking (approx 25%) than defending (a little below 50% I think). So I'd say it's fairly efficient against the Uber Retinue, and it's very efficient in SP games in general. I'm sure it would be very different in a MP game and I'd love to try it out in those...but nobody wants to play with me. At least not anyone in my own timezone. (Besides, few MP games are played with retinues anyway, right?) You make valid points about other skills and spells, but are you taking Bless/Curse into account now? Since there are two Bless +5 heroes standing in the background, and the offensive hero is a neutral, the chance of her becoming blessed is 84% (or something like that). That means the opponent's abilities are cut in half and then the Wand of Negation takes care of the rest (correct me if I'm wrong). Plus, good/neutral opponents stand an equally high chance of being Cursed because of 2xCurse +5. Which is why I mentioned this retinue is more efficient agains good/neutrals. I'm not sure about how Bless & Curse interact with spell-boosted skills though. Naturally, a +5 Fire unit backed by Altar of Fire is extremely deadly...but how common are those situations - really? I'm asking simply because I don't know, since I've never played an MP game. As for 30+ warlord lvl games you've mentioned the most dangerous retinue unit is the Orc. I'm thinking a summoned Mandrake Treand (with Death Gaze) backed by blessing/cursing/healing heroes would be another cool option. Any spontaneous thoughts about that? |
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"Negate does not negate Negate."
--- KGB "Moreover, I advise that Daemons and Dark Elves must switch places on the Race Wheel." --- Marcus Porcius Cato
Last Edit: 12 years, 8 months ago by Seppuccu.
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Re: Uber Retinue and alternatives 12 years, 8 months ago #449
Sepuccu,
L14 retinue is a good test. I typically use L10 and I suspect most players use L10-L20 range for their retinue. I think the 8v8 battles are a better test since other units get involved on both sides. That would be more typical I think than 3v3 which I suspect would be quite rare and almost unheard of in MP games (Are you finding the AI is often sending out it's Uber Retinue alone as I don't recall that in testing). I do think you should not just use L1 cannon fodder units though because quite often both sides have units that are of a higher level, especially when a Combat Warlord is involved with Weaponmaster. As you discovered, the Boots of Dancing are a very powerful item. I remember using them very effectively in MP games against high level archery, taunting all the enemy archers into battle. Its frustrating when you lose the ability to select your units for combat As far as bless/curse goes: Your Empire hero has a 75% chance to bless (1/2*1/2) and you have a 50% chance to be cursed. That works out to: 37.5% chance of bless and no curse (best outcome - enemy skills halfed), 12.5% chance of no bless and no curse (2nd best outcome - no skills halved), 37% chance of bless and curse (OK outcome - your and your enemy skills halved), 12.5% chance of no bless and curse (worst outcome - your skills halved). The thing is though, once cursed, you are cursed until you die in combat. So 50% of the time you are going to lose half of all your skills while each new enemy you face either keeps 100% of theirs (if you missed blessing, or if they aren't themselves cursed) or loses half themselves. I *hate* when I get cursed hence why I prefer the Evil heroes to never have that problem. Also remember that when you are cursed, your own skills are halved. So the Wand of Negate then drops to +1 at which point even if the enemy skills of +4 or better are halved they still function. And if you miss blessing to drop someone's +4 to +2 you can be in a world of hurt if it's against a Minotaur that gets bloodlusted 3 times for +9 strength. Further, curse affects more skills than bless. Curse affects the following extra skills: Vampirism, Armor, Warding, Bloodlust, Regeneration, Taunt. Bless affects the following extra skills: Archery. So you can see that being cursed halves a lot of your useful items/skills while your own blessing doesn't prevent a hero with +5 Vampirism from going to town on you or a Minotaur from Bloodlusting or the loss of your Armor/Warding etc that all isn't removed from a cursed unit. Your only extra advantage lies against Archery. This is another reason I much prefer to be immune to being Cursed because those extra skills are ones I really don't want halved under any circumstances. As far as spells go, bless/curse halves their effects. If they stack, that stack is halved (ie +1 Multiattack Hydra + Tentacles = +6, but against blessed unit is +3) The L30 warlord games I am talking about is not Retinue level, but Warlord level (for spell casting so you get the full Altar effect). Most MP games are L25-40 range where the game is most interesting due to how varied the Warlord powers are at that point. Your Mandrake (Deathgaze) idea won't work on a retinue unit. Once in the retinue the Deathgaze skill doesn't carry over to the next game because the retinue unit is just considered a Treant. So you'd just get a plain Treant with it's regular skills. Still, you can summon one in a single game and use it effectively. I once used a high level Elemental built in my Capitol with the buildings as a retinue unit for a long time for it's Warding/Crushing Blow skill and immunity to Assassination and Death Gaze. KGB |
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Re: Uber Retinue and alternatives 12 years, 6 months ago #528
whereagles wrote:
Ok so I tried the above build, only to find out that the warding hero got assassinated. Apparently negate negates warding. So what does negate actually negate? Everything but assassination/death gaze?? Everything but Assassin, Death Gaze, Bless, Curse...and Negate (see my sig). whereagles wrote: The good thing is I got a new anti-uber build: assassin hero with gaze helm and negate wand Yep, good anti-über, but add Mithril Mail, and Boots of Dancing or Ring of Trolls. It should probably also be an Evil hero. |
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"Negate does not negate Negate."
--- KGB "Moreover, I advise that Daemons and Dark Elves must switch places on the Race Wheel." --- Marcus Porcius Cato
Last Edit: 12 years, 6 months ago by Seppuccu.
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Re: Uber Retinue and alternatives 12 years, 6 months ago #530
Thx for clearing up negate
As to the anti-uber stack, negate negates armor (right?) so it's pointless to use mitril mail. I was thinking more like assassin hero gaze helm/negate wand/regen necklace/taunt boots No need to use warding shield because it gets negated anyway I just have to decide whether to make it a good or evil hero. Evil cannot be blessed/cursed, right? |
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Last Edit: 12 years, 6 months ago by whereagles.
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Re: Uber Retinue and alternatives 12 years, 6 months ago #531
You don't want a hero that is good only for fighting Uber Retinue but for other situations too (killing enemy heroes whatever they might be), hence the Mithril Mail.
Evil cannot be blessed or cursed. |
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"Negate does not negate Negate."
--- KGB "Moreover, I advise that Daemons and Dark Elves must switch places on the Race Wheel." --- Marcus Porcius Cato |
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